Curse

Improvavel · Aug 26, 2009, 09:41 AM // 09:41

Sincerely I'm not that sure if the AI can tell the armor difference that well.

I've never seen mobs suddenly bypass the front line to whack my imbagon just because I've cracked armor and/or the front line is under SY!

Actually what I see is the mobs bypass the frontline, and me with my cracked armor and lack of SY!, to go after some caster.

The mobs aggro deciding factor seems to be current health and if its caster profession or not.

Picuso · Aug 26, 2009, 10:51 AM // 10:51

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tenebrae

Wrong , read skill description before writing , its so easy. SYG and SY are for party members , not allies .

If you are keeping SY 100% up (or 85-90%), SYG does nothing to your party members. Only gives you some armor and keep your IAS up.

laksa and curry · Aug 27, 2009, 05:57 AM // 05:57

Quote:

Originally Posted by Reverend Dr

Drunken Master.

-only 1 skill slot required

-no stopping to recast anthem/soldiers ever

-no cracked armor

-costs only 5 energy every 90 seconds

Hell I use this on my paragon sober simply because I can't stand stopping to recast shit every 10-30 seconds and even sober it is still not difficult to keep SY up 100%.

Me too. Not sure its the best way but I recently changed my IAS to drunkard master. 15%IAS or 25% does not make that much of a difference.

Racthoh · Aug 27, 2009, 07:50 PM // 19:50

Quote:

Originally Posted by Reverend Dr

Drunken Master.

I can't justify losing "There's Nothing To Fear!", "Save Yourselves!" or Ebon Battle Standard of Honor for a skill that performs worse than other IAS options. By worse I mean outputs less damage, slower adrenaline gain, theoretical counters as it is a stance, and uses a PvE skill slot. If people will argue that Cracked Armor from Aggressive Refrain is an issue then I will argue stance removal against Drunken Master as both only come into play when the Paragon is under attack. I would argue the frequency of my deaths when playing Paragon as a direct result of pressure the monks couldn't deal with are about as frequent as dealing with enemies using stance removal.

In any case, swapping the headpiece on the initial Aggressive Refrain cast creates a large enough window to hit "There's Nothing To Fear!" shortly after it recharges.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Improvavel

The mobs aggro deciding factor seems to be current health and if its caster profession or not.

Precisely why an Order hero and henchmen are attacked first over the player and their heroes because we have Survivor runes, +health mods on our weapon/shield, and the vigor rune.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jonas The Keen

Explain to me how this is different from taking anthem of flame on a bar with aggressive refrain.

Personally I don't use Anthem of Flame and never have when running "Save Yourselves!". The only skill I consider worth interrupting the attack process is Ebon Battle Standard of Honor for obvious reasons.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tenebrae

False. Redundant and an outside source to make them useful ? lol sorry for trying to SYNC with my team while playing a support class . Yes , you know im talking about SYG , its great and works great. Remember that if you have TNTF on your bar ( cough*always*cough ) you only have to cover about 12-8 secs to keep SFury working therefore ,theres no valid argument in "mantaining" SFury being an issue. If someone cant mantain Sfury working 100% of the time , please delete your paragon.

"They're On Fire!" or "Stand Your Ground!" are the two options that everyone latches onto and yes I was assuming that was what a Soldier's Fury variant would use. They're redundant, you have "Save Yourselves!" and "They're On Fire!" requires an outside source of burning, typically an Elementalist running Searing Flames which means they're not running Mind Blast or Ether Renewal which in turn means we're wasting an entire party slot (read, 8 skill slots) for something we don't even need. A better option to using "Stand Your Ground!" would be another Paragon with Motivation spec and Purifying Finale since it will also do more than keep your IAS working; using Aggressive Refrain that is.

You could argue that Blazing Finale makes "They're On Fire!" work but that skill best works on a melee, and any melee I use are generally Earth Shaker Warriors. As is the nature of that bar, anything it locks on the ground can't deal any damage anyway.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tenebrae

Its not an argument , its an issue no matter what you say and if you get hit in HM by 2-3 good damage spells in 1 sec , hell you well see the diff in those 20 less armor.

If I'm running hero/hench I pull out my bow when I pull while all of the AI runs in ahead of me so all of the spells and attacks target them, with Dark Fury and Focused Anger/"For Great Justice!" this means I will have at the very least a halfway full "Save Yourselves!". Swapping immediately to spear/shield and C + Spacing whatever melee are now running in at AI, building a full "Save Yourselves!" shortly after combat begins. I can now call a target for the AI to attack while casually throwing my spear at whatever I want while I quarterstep into range of the casters or continue to attack the melee depending on my positioning in proportion to the rest of the group. Naturally if I'm concerned about spell damage I have to consider spreading out as to avoid any AoE hits.

If I'm playing with people the monks will know how to keep me alive quite well.

We have monks in the group, if they have energy no one should be dying. As flawed as the AI may be they will cast and cast until they no longer can. I will die because of poor AI design with condition removal, not because of Aggressive Refrain. One player with -20 AL + higher/100% "Save Yourselves!" uptime vs. longer periods of time where seven other players don't have +100 AL and less damage from the Paragon.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tenebrae

Yea, and Calista post its assuming the imbagon has no GFTE or anything else and theres no other P or Shouter in the party that can make Cracked Armor reapply every 5-10 sec. Yes , tell your monk/healer not to remove the condition , i dare you ... fair enough.

Monks are better off not being the ones removing conditions in PvE. I've linked my arguments before on the matter. There are much better things they could be doing with the energy.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tenebrae

Seriously , try to stick to "another style" of Imbagon or Paragon with Sy or whatever but dont tell a story we already read.

If someone is going to suggest an alternative I'm going to inform that person what they may not have considered regarding the community accepted norm. In this case, Soldier's Fury. As such I and others are going to continue to argue the pros and cons and let everyone come to their own conclusion about which would be better suited for their play style. Comments may seem rather off-topic at times but their words need to be taken into consideration.

Bobby2 · Aug 27, 2009, 09:32 PM // 21:32

AR complaints make me so sad. People don't run curse necs anymore?

Tenebrae · Aug 27, 2009, 10:42 PM // 22:42

Quote:

Originally Posted by Racthoh

"They're On Fire!" or "Stand Your Ground!" are the two options that everyone latches onto and yes I was assuming that was what a Soldier's Fury variant would use.

And yet , they are good , no matter what you say.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Racthoh

They're redundant, you have "Save Yourselves!" and "They're On Fire!" requires an outside source of burning, typically an Elementalist running Searing Flames which means they're not running Mind Blast or Ether Renewal which in turn means we're wasting an entire party slot (read, 8 skill slots) for something we don't even need.

You are talking like you were stating facts and you are very far from that.
1- No , they are not redundant.
2- "Typically" doesnt mean always and you cant lean on that to state something like the opposite to...
3- An Ele not running Mind Blast or Ether Renewal =\= Wasted slot
4- "Need" is a very personal matter , for example i dont think you need SY up 100% , not even 50% because like i said before , i dont play as an imbagon

Quote:

Originally Posted by Racthoh

A better option to using "Stand Your Ground!" would be another Paragon with Motivation spec and Purifying Finale since it will also do more than keep your IAS working; using Aggressive Refrain that is.

Theres only a 10-8 secs lapse to keep SFury working 100% , there are so many useful shouts or chants that can be used that im not even going to bother.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Racthoh

Bla bla bla H/H playing stuff and whatever ....
Naturally if I'm concerned about spell damage I have to consider spreading out as to avoid any AoE hits.
If I'm playing with people the monks will know how to keep me alive quite well.

No one said that having cracked armor = dying , at least not me , but having cracked armor almost all the time ( if you slot GFTE and something else ) or making the AI remove it its an issue. Wont kill you ofc , but is definetly not good , and that is a fact .

Quote:

Originally Posted by Racthoh

We have monks in the group, if they have energy no one should be dying. As flawed as the AI may be they will cast and cast until they no longer can. I will die because of poor AI design with condition removal, not because of Aggressive Refrain.

See above.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Racthoh

One player with -20 AL + higher/100% "Save Yourselves!" uptime vs. longer periods of time where seven other players don't have +100 AL and less damage from the Paragon.

The thing is that diff between a Sfury + SYG paragon is 44 armor about 12-15 sec and 20 the rest of the time. 100% is great , hell like having an eternal E/Mo spamming heal party while your prot does the rest but .... is it really needed ? do we REALLY NEED SY! 100% of the time ? ..... not even 50% of the time imo. If the answer is "yes" , you must be doing something really wrong but im not gonna argue here if SY should be up 100% or not.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Racthoh

If someone is going to suggest an alternative I'm going to inform that person what they may not have considered regarding the community accepted norm. In this case, Soldier's Fury. As such I and others are going to continue to argue the pros and cons and let everyone come to their own conclusion about which would be better suited for their play style. Comments may seem rather off-topic at times but their words need to be taken into consideration.

Comments that are like "nah , that sux and classic imbagon is better" but said with diff words shouldnt be taken into consideration. This is a thread to make an alternative version , not to destroy builds that ppl try to make or show. Comments that are constantly telling ppl to leave the idea of making an alternative are so far from being constructive that tend to be annoying.

Like i said before , think before posting , just think that Fanger and Agg refrain dont exist .... just a little imagination to make some suitable team configuration or build that could give some good results instead of arguing with ppl that give ideas .

Spiritweaver · Aug 27, 2009, 10:55 PM // 22:55

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bobby2

AR complaints make me so sad. People don't run curse necs anymore?

Apparently so.

Also if your healers can't manage to keep one Paragon alive with the amount of damage reduction you give the party as an Imbagon I suggest telling them to uninstall.

MisterB · Aug 27, 2009, 11:06 PM // 23:06

If I'm not mistaken, one of the primary goals of the "Imbagon" build design is maintaining SY! 100% or as close to that as possible. If you are discarding that as a goal, then it's not an Imbagon. It's a different build.

An ele running Searing Flames is not very effective in Hard mode.

ToF is redundant with both SY and TNtF in play. The only thing it will do is reduce armor-ignoring damage further. SYG will only protect the user. That makes it redundant, because the backline can prot or heal. If you don't need SY, then why bring ToF? Because you want Soldier's Fury.

Alternative builds are fine, but labeling them as Imbagon invites comparison and criticism. Call it a Soldier's Fury build, or something else besides Imbagon, and it's just a Paragon build.

Axel Zinfandel · Aug 28, 2009, 01:13 AM // 01:13

Am I the only one who rarely gets attacked using AR+FA? enemies ussually aren't smart enough to realize that you're the only one without retarded armor.

And even if they do, you have high enough armor to last pretty long, so stop mashing the SY button, let it end and let some of the other people gain aggro.

Dusk_ · Aug 28, 2009, 01:15 AM // 01:15

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tenebrae

And yet , they are good , no matter what you say.

They are good when the builds support them.

"Save Yourselves!" plus any party wide armour boost is bad, simply because that other armour boosting skill will literally do nothing.

"They're on Fire!" is good, but only when you're dealing with damage that is a threat to a constant SY and a half-up TNTF...which isn't very much.

Quote:

You are talking like you were stating facts and you are very far from that.
1- No , they are not redundant.
2- "Typically" doesnt mean always and you cant lean on that to state something like the opposite to...
3- An Ele not running Mind Blast or Ether Renewal =\= Wasted slot
4- "Need" is a very personal matter , for example i dont think you need SY up 100% , not even 50% because like i said before , i dont play as an imbagon

1) SY reduces damage by 83%, TNTF makes that damage even more piddly. SYG literally does nothing for your party, because of armour stacking limits, and ToF is redundant because you have a ridiculous amount of damage reduction already.

3) Either way, Searing Flames in hard mode is a poor choice of Elite skill.

4) That's a dumb argument. An Imbagon is a SY! Paragon. If you don't want to run an Imbagon, that's perfectly fine, but don't argue that a build doesn't need to do what its entire intent is. It's like trying to make a good Healing build and throwing in Smiting skills because you don't need to be healing 100% of the time. Make a Smite/Healer hybrid, we don't care, just don't go telling someone who wants a Healing build that he should go hybrid instead.

Quote:

Theres only a 10-8 secs lapse to keep SFury working 100% , there are so many useful shouts or chants that can be used that im not even going to bother.

The original Imbagon build has zero downtime spent keeping IAS up, zero downtime in SY spamming, zero downtime in maintaining +100% Adrenaline, and provides decent damage and a party-wide buff at the same time.

SFury may be maintainable, and there may be useful shouts and chants to maintain it, but the issue isn't can it be done, but is it a good build while doing it.

Quote:

No one said that having cracked armor = dying , at least not me , but having cracked armor almost all the time ( if you slot GFTE and something else ) or making the AI remove it its an issue. Wont kill you ofc , but is definetly not good , and that is a fact .

See above.

Which is why Racway ignores targeted condition removal altogether.

Quote:

The thing is that diff between a Sfury + SYG paragon is 44 armor about 12-15 sec and 20 the rest of the time. 100% is great , hell like having an eternal E/Mo spamming heal party while your prot does the rest but .... is it really needed ? do we REALLY NEED SY! 100% of the time ? ..... not even 50% of the time imo. If the answer is "yes" , you must be doing something really wrong but im not gonna argue here if SY should be up 100% or not.

An Imbagon is a build that is designed to spam SY.

Do you need SY up 100% of the time? Yes, when the rest of your party is built with the expectation that it will be up all the time.

Quote:

Comments that are like "nah , that sux and classic imbagon is better" but said with diff words shouldnt be taken into consideration. This is a thread to make an alternative version , not to destroy builds that ppl try to make or show. Comments that are constantly telling ppl to leave the idea of making an alternative are so far from being constructive that tend to be annoying.

Alternatives need to be comparable to be worth considering. You can run the build if you want to, and enjoy it just fine.

But if you want other people to consider using it, you're going to have to give some good reasons why.

Axel Zinfandel · Aug 28, 2009, 02:36 AM // 02:36

True Facts:

AR+FA maintains SY! better, with less offense

SF Maintains SY! less then perfect, with more offense.

It should be mention that in the long run, Soldier's Fury imbagon mathamatically has more adrenaline gain in the long term. However since battles in PvE normally aren't "long term", the fact is irrelevant.

Soldier's Fury is probably the better choice if you have a good enough rank for SY! There's definitely a sweet spot in allegiance rank there in that Soldier's Fury will maintain SY! just efficient enough without being over effective, and taking away from the offensive capabilities

It's the same concept with energy management. If you're gaining too much energy, your build could probably be revised to gain just enough energy, but give you more benefits or skills

Reverend Dr · Aug 28, 2009, 06:56 AM // 06:56

Quote:

Originally Posted by Racthoh

worse than other IAS options. By worse I mean outputs less damage, slower adrenaline gain,

I don't really know how drunken master's 30-35% IAS can put out less damage than aggressive or soldiers. As a matter of fact since it has no cast time unlike anthem of flame or soldier's, it should have higher damage. Anthem adds a little damage, but it is very insignificant compared with the time it takes to cast vs continuing to spam attacks.

While it doesn't have adrenaline increase like soldiers' neither does aggressive, we are talking about the IAS by itself not just the adrenaline engine.

The only priority it takes up is a PvE slot, but completely freeing up another skill slot can be worth that tradeoff.

Tenebrae · Aug 28, 2009, 08:05 AM // 08:05

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dusk_

They are good when the builds support them.

"Save Yourselves!" plus any party wide armour boost is bad, simply because that other armour boosting skill will literally do nothing.

"They're on Fire!" is good, but only when you're dealing with damage that is a threat to a constant SY and a half-up TNTF...which isn't very much.

They are just 2 skills that can be used and you are guessing 100% SY time wich doesnt happen with this build. SYG will add armor to you and SY does not , just because of that ( whatever you think its important or not ) is not redundant 100% .

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dusk_

1) SY reduces damage by 83%, TNTF makes that damage even more piddly. SYG literally does nothing for your party, because of armour stacking limits, and ToF is redundant because you have a ridiculous amount of damage reduction already.

If you have SY ! 100% of the time , TNTF is redundant . It only reduces an already reduced damage , only would work as a party heal and for reducing armor ignoring damage.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dusk_

3) Either way, Searing Flames in hard mode is a poor choice of Elite skill.

4) That's a dumb argument. An Imbagon is a SY! Paragon. If you don't want to run an Imbagon, that's perfectly fine, but don't argue that a build doesn't need to do what its entire intent is. It's like trying to make a good Healing build and throwing in Smiting skills because you don't need to be healing 100% of the time. Make a Smite/Healer hybrid, we don't care, just don't go telling someone who wants a Healing build that he should go hybrid instead.

I dont care about eles , burning can come from other sources too and i didnt mention SFlames , rahctoh did.
If you define a Imbagon as a SY ! Paragon then this build is also an imbagon , its another style and theres NO unbreakable rule that says imbagon = 100% time SY! up . Period.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dusk_

The original Imbagon build has zero downtime spent keeping IAS up, zero downtime in SY spamming, zero downtime in maintaining +100% Adrenaline, and provides decent damage and a party-wide buff at the same time.

SFury may be maintainable, and there may be useful shouts and chants to maintain it, but the issue isn't can it be done, but is it a good build while doing it.

Like i said before , original imbagon doesnt matter , this thread is for a diff aproach , dont tell a story we already read and no , that "issue" doesnt exist.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dusk_

An Imbagon is a build that is designed to spam SY.

Do you need SY up 100% of the time? Yes, when the rest of your party is built with the expectation that it will be up all the time.

Rule not carved in stone. You need it 100% of the time ? no , unless you are doing something very wrong

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dusk_

Alternatives need to be comparable to be worth considering. You can run the build if you want to, and enjoy it just fine.

But if you want other people to consider using it, you're going to have to give some good reasons why.

And yet you are just trying to bring down things instead trying to make them better. Btw , you are wrong , im not the OP , i dont care. Just amazed on how ppl is unable to imagine for 1 sec that FA and Agg Ref dont exist and keep going offtopic instead making a constructive post.

Revelations · Aug 28, 2009, 03:36 PM // 15:36

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tenebrae

Just amazed on how ppl is unable to imagine for 1 sec that FA and Agg Ref dont exist and keep going offtopic instead making a constructive post.

Theoretically if FA and AR didn't exist, then sure - Soldier's Fury would be one of your best bets for maintaining SY on a paragon. FGJ and enduring harmony likely coming in second.

HOWEVER (and this is a big however), those skills DO exist - so there is literally no point in running an inferior variant to them other than shits and giggles. Your argument about 'different style of imbagon' is completely irrelevant. Yes, it's a different style - but it's a different style that is inferior to the meta imbagon - that's what nearly everyone here is trying to tell you, and what you appear to be blatantly ignoring.

Axel Zinfandel · Aug 29, 2009, 12:24 AM // 00:24

Quote:

Originally Posted by Reverend Dr

I don't really know how drunken master's 30-35% IAS can put out less damage than aggressive or soldiers. As a matter of fact since it has no cast time unlike anthem of flame or soldier's, it should have higher damage. Anthem adds a little damage, but it is very insignificant compared with the time it takes to cast vs continuing to spam attacks.

While it doesn't have adrenaline increase like soldiers' neither does aggressive, we are talking about the IAS by itself not just the adrenaline engine.

The only priority it takes up is a PvE slot, but completely freeing up another skill slot can be worth that tradeoff.

Drunken master being better is one of the most opinionated skill choices. You like it? Awesome, the rest of us dont like relying on consumables to do our job

Tenebrae · Aug 29, 2009, 01:18 AM // 01:18

Quote:

Originally Posted by Revelations

HOWEVER (and this is a big however), those skills DO exist - so there is literally no point in running an inferior variant to them other than shits and giggles. Your argument about 'different style of imbagon' is completely irrelevant. Yes, it's a different style - but it's a different style that is inferior to the meta imbagon - that's what nearly everyone here is trying to tell you, and what you appear to be blatantly ignoring.

Excuse me but .... are you on crack ? did you even bother to READ ? this thread is about that . Is about "playing" a game where classic imbagon doesnt exist and ppl try to make a diff approach. WHERE did I or ANYONE say that THIS or ANY other build is EQUAL or BETTER than the classic one ? WHERE did I or ANYONE else say WHAT ppl should use instead of classic imbagon ?.
You accusse me of ignoring things that i already stated to know about 4 or 5 times based on something that you just made up.
Like i said before ( about 3 or 4 times ) if you dont wanna "play" this game ( to go on with the OP purposal ) , feel free to leave. But if you are going to tell same story that WE ALL know , your posts will be just a totally pointless +1.

Seriously , go on thread topic or dont but stop being annoying ffs .

just getting tired of answering the same sht over and over .....

Reverend Dr · Aug 29, 2009, 01:43 AM // 01:43

Quote:

Originally Posted by Axel Zinfandel

Drunken master being better is one of the most opinionated skill choices. You like it? Awesome, the rest of us dont like relying on consumables to do our job

If you job is simply to keep SY up 100% (as is what is expected of imbagon), then you do not need consumables to do so. It will do so while still freeing up a skill slot.

If you are going to use consumables, then you might as well forgo an IAS in favor of rock candy.

A sober drunken master is still better than every other IAS skill in the game.

MercenaryKnight · Aug 30, 2009, 04:28 AM // 04:28

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tenebrae

Excuse me but .... are you on crack ? did you even bother to READ ? this thread is about that . Is about "playing" a game where classic imbagon doesnt exist and ppl try to make a diff approach. WHERE did I or ANYONE say that THIS or ANY other build is EQUAL or BETTER than the classic one ? WHERE did I or ANYONE else say WHAT ppl should use instead of classic imbagon ?.
You accusse me of ignoring things that i already stated to know about 4 or 5 times based on something that you just made up.
Like i said before ( about 3 or 4 times ) if you dont wanna "play" this game ( to go on with the OP purposal ) , feel free to leave. But if you are going to tell same story that WE ALL know , your posts will be just a totally pointless +1.

Seriously , go on thread topic or dont but stop being annoying ffs .

just getting tired of answering the same sht over and over .....

The point is the person posted the build for the public. So we are taking it a part and seeing if it is better to run. You have been attempting to argue about fa and ar not being real skills. So you were trying to defend soldier's fury.

We are trying to compare the build to the regular imbagon build. If you don't care about comparing them then don't bother talking in this thread.

Calista Blackblood · Aug 30, 2009, 05:48 AM // 05:48

This is going nowhere.